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exsanguinatrix
Mutie
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
Posts: 136
Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:22 am |
 Post subject: Grant Morrison's sublime art of donkey fornication |
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or if mod Pepito will allow it, "Grant Morrison is a donkey careless whisper."
I'm afraid I can hold this in me no longer. This is in response to Batman RIP which probably means general spoiler warnings all around. Let's hear your thoughts, cool cats.
A few points I hope someone will address-- First: WTF just happened? Second: is this part of Batman continuity? Third: If it's part of continuity and not some elseworld title, what does this mean for the future of the caped crusader? (because that goddamn movie poster pose of Dick made me want to rip the comic in two).
And then from there the ball can get rolling to other equally pressing points like 1. the quantum comic law of habeas corpus --no body, no death and 2. WTF JOKER GOT TAKEN OUT BY A 9-YEAR OLD. |
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Sir Pepoy Josepito
Super Special Awesome
Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 603
Location: in sanity
Wed Dec 03, 2008 9:59 pm |
| Post subject: LONG ASS SPECULATION AND SPOILERS |
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First of all, have you read the entire story? From 676 to 681? If you haven't, I suggest you go read them all to get a... somewhat "clear" picture of what the careless whisper just happened.
But basically, we find out that Batman already knew from the very beginning that the Black Glove would strike. He just wasn't sure how. He did know that Jezebel Jet was "up to no good" in the beginning. Anyway, he wanted to know if all his GODLY PREP TIME would stand up to what could possibly be his greatest test in the form of the Black Glove, an Illuminati-like association whose power and wealth far surpass Bruce Wayne's means, and, as Batman says so himself in the beginning of the last issue, the ULTIMATE TEST which is DEATH ITSELF. That's why he went through "Thogal". To see if Batman can conquer even death.
It just so happens that the leader of the Black Glove, Dr. Hurt, happens to know just about everything about Bruce Wayne. And he claims to be none other than Bruce's father, Thomas Wayne... and that he planned to have Martha and Bruce killed back in that fateful night after watching Zorro because he somehow found out that Martha had an affair with Alfred and Bruce was the manga by Kazushi Hagiwara!! child... but Chill "lost his nerve". Hurt also claims that he, being Thomas Wayne, faked his death and soon became Hurt. Bruce, of course, denies all this and says that Hurt is actually Mangrove Pierce, an actor, star of the film "The Black Glove"and "my father's double, and mine". Then things start to get... weird.
Hurt first denies Bruce's statement that he is not Thomas Wayne by saying "and still the cloak fits. And if not dad, have you dared to consider the only alternative?" Then Hurt responds to Bruce saying his real identity is Mangrove Pierce by saying he "skinned him alive and wore him to Mayhew's party." (Mayhew being the philanthropist that formed the Club of Heroes, the creator of the film "The Black Glove", and in Batman 667 turned out to be crazy and was controlled by the Black Glove, killing "the Legionary", a member of the Club of Heroes).
And then there's that whole "the hole", "the enemy", "the piece that can never fit... since the beginning" that sort of mirrors Bruce's lines when he talks about his experience in Thogal in the first pages of the issue. Hurt then goes on to say how he will taint the image of the dead Wayne couple and Alfred with shocking documents, which kind of goes against his statement that he is Thomas Wayne. Which leads to A LOT OF PEOPLE believing that Dr. Hurt is none other than... wait for it... the Devil. The Dark Master, the Lord of Hell, the Prince of Evil, Satan himself. There's a whole lot of dialog and imagery that references to the devil throughout the course of the story and, to some, the most damning evidences are the Joker saying to Dr. Hurt before he leaves "devil is double is deuce, my dear doctor and joker trumps deuce" to which Hurt replies with "What are you saying?" and gets the answer "I'm saying adieu pleased to meet you, admire your work but don't. don't call me servant", the demand of Hurt for Bruce to "serve the Black Glove... willingly dedicating your life in the corruption of virtue", and Bruce asking himself in the final entry in the Black Casebook that "has he found the Devil waiting?", placed just before Bruce takes down the helicopter Hurt is trying to escape in.
It's all left ambiguous, though, (just how Morrison likes it) and with Hurt showing fear with how Bruce was going to take him down leaves doubt as to how the literal Devil could possibly be afraid of a mere man.
I personally believe it's all metaphorical with how Hurt is referred to as "the Devil". Not really "Satan" like others would believe. Hurt really is just Mangrove Pierce driven insane with all the power he somehow accumulated with the Black Glove. That or he really is just a psychopath from the very beginning. Villains are deluded almost all the time with how they deem themselves as the "greatest evil" against the hero.
But if Hurt isn't really the Devil, then what is supposed to be "the most shocking event in Batman's 70 year history"? Another theory thrown out there is that Hurt's documents that reveal Thomas, Martha, and Alfred as "perverts, drug addicts, and criminals" are actually true. This would be the "hole" in Bruce's memory that he talks about in the beginning of the issue. That repressed traumatizing memory that he can't seem to remember but knows is there in the deepest recesses of his mind. He was definitely traumatized by their deaths but he obviously remembers it very clearly so it must be something else. Bruce outright denies Hurt's claim being Thomas Wayne but he doesn't say anything when Hurt tells him about revealing the shocking documents.
And if you look closely at the final page, the epilogue, Martha's eyes are glowing red and he and Thomas are wearing... you guessed it, black gloves!
We'll all probably find out soon after Last Rites, the following Batman story, and Final Crisis. Which reminds me... I personally believe that the Dark Master the monk in Nanda Parbat is referring to is actually... Darkseid. The whole GLOWING RED EYES thing and the connection to what WILL happen to Bruce in Final Crisis is what makes me think that is the case.
AND, YES, OF COURSE, DARKSEID IS THE DEVIL
HE IS THE EMBODIMENT OF EVIL IN THE DC UNIVERSE
ANTI-LIFE JUSTIFIES MY IGNORANCE
ANTI-LIFE JUSTIFIES MY HATE
Yes, this is in continuity. They're planning to have someone else replace Bruce as the Batman, heavily implying Dick Grayson to take up the cape and the cowl.
No, Bruce Wayne did not die. The Batman in Final Crisis, which happens after RIP, is Bruce Wayne. RIP basically leads up to why Bruce will give up being Batman in Final Crisis. Grant Morrison already said before RIP began that he didn't actually like how comic book characters get killed off and so he wanted to do a story that would be more than just the physical death of Batman. "A fate worse than death" was what he exactly said. That and the event being "the most shocking thing to ever happen in Batman's 70 year history".
As for the Joker getting taken out by Damian, I honestly thought it was pretty ironic and thus, pretty funny. They're heavily implying that Damian will be playing a very big role in the future as part of the Bat-family, and if I remember correctly, in Batman 666, it shows a future where Damian is the Batman. A Batman that kills. With the whole Anti-Christ/Satan, Gotham has gone to Hell thing going on. Plus, Damian says how he can't live up to "Bruce AND Dick" and Barbara, the new chief of police, saying how she can't trust him because he was the cause of a "very good friend's death"!
But I'm pretty sure he didn't know that the Joker was driving that ambulance all haphazardly. And the talk over at the DC message boards is that the Joker will be back soon with a "unified personality" after missing for awhile, coincidentally when Bruce goes missing as well, with all the different personalities the Joker has had ever since his introduction all rolled up into one.
K THAT'S ALL THERE IS FROM ME
YOUR GUYS' TURN
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exsanguinatrix
Mutie
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
Posts: 136
Wed Dec 03, 2008 10:20 pm |
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Haven't read the entire, entire thing. Bits and pieces that I can track down, but I did read most of it. Even the bizzare batman 666, in which I thought Frank Miller was back mucking about with The Dark Knight Returns.
Okay, so I have a problem with Jezebel Jet. Bruce knows she's playing him. When did he become an expert on acting involved with a woman? Between Silver Saint-what's her face and Vicky Vale, he's always been awkward at best.
Wait. Dr Hurt confuses me. So he's not Thomas Wayne?
And please explain the bit about batmite. 'Cause that really, really didn't make a bit of sense.
ARGS. DEVIL. BATMAN AND SATAN.
Someone is pulling a DC version of One more day and it's begging for a retcon. In the ass. |
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Sir Pepoy Josepito
Super Special Awesome
Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 603
Location: in sanity
Wed Dec 03, 2008 11:37 pm |
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| Batman wrote: | | Love? Congratulate Alfred on the acting lessons! |
Dr. Hurt's identity is intentionally left ambiguous. To get everyone speculating and discussing. It's obviously working.
As for Bat-Mite... he was only present for the short time when Bruce went a bit more cuckoo than usual. He was actually, and ironically, acting as the "voice of reason" for Batman Zur-En-Arrh, Bruce's "back-up personality". Bat-Mite was the guide, the one that kept Bruce from totally going off his rocker. "Symbolically", Bat-Mite tells Bruce that he can't follow Bruce once he steps into Arkham Asylum. He can't exist within the walls of insanity of Arkham... where Bruce actually regains his sanity.
And Grant Morrison just loves to take stuff from the Silver-Age, not only evident in Batman of Zur-En-Arrh and Bat-Mite himself, but with the Club of Heroes as well, believing that everything that has happened, from the very first story of the Batman until what's happening now, belongs to a "unified, grand continuity", crises be damned. [/code]
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Job McBadass
Douche (Retired)
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
Posts: 920
Location: In the Moment
Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:39 am |
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I find the Devil imagery and how it's played out during the course of the storyline incredibly interesting. The speeches made, both by sexy, sexy Joker and Bats's blue-ruled captions, all point to an external source of evil and dissonance INVADING the normally collected and calm disposition of Bruce.
As you may recall from 52, wherein Bruce traverses the desert to defeat the hallucinatory Bat God, the embodiment of his burgeoning anxieties and mistrust towards the JLA; it was revealed (pretty obvious, though) that his lack of trust is a direct product of the dead parents thing. Now if you put into question the circumstances of the death, if it was a manga by Kazushi Hagiwara!! fabrication to serve whatever banal ass-scratch Hurt wanted, then the very notion of that would cripple Bruce in a way unlike nothing we've seen before.
The Devil-ish part works, to whip out my 19 years of Bible exposure, hand-in-hand with Bruce's choice, whether to learn the truth, and take the plunge. Will he intentionally put into question everything he has believed in, everything that made Batman Batman, everything that he has done in the name of his metaphysical justice creed? Or will he stew in this fantasy of his, this 30+-year conceit, knowing that there is reasonable doubt in his origin story that will adversely affect his entire career as the Batman, will he strike that Faustian deal? Suddenly, him BAAAWWW'ing to the league over that single mindwipe, looks a teensy bit hypocritical, now that Hurt laid bare before him the possibility of an induced repression of good chunk of his life.
Accolades to Morrison for trying to pull this off (he hasn't yet, IMO). How can you successfully revolutionize a character while staying in canon? By killing him (Superman? Jean Grey? we all know how that pans out in the end)? By killing people around him, stuffing bodies in their fridges to develop angst and a flashy new burden that he/she will most likely abandon after half an arc? By pitting them against progressively stronger enemies and more sinister plots?
That's the thing; to successfully redefine a canon character, you have to literally back-write his/her entire history, by staying within his/her history. Bruce parents got killed, sure. That fateful night had a lot of treatments in the past, but few has ever questioned how and why. Some mavericks try to revisit that scene and glaze it in a different light, sure, but they always stick to the fundamentals: Bruce and family goes out of theater, robber with gun appears, Bruce's parents get shot. But with Morrison, it doesn't have to be this way. What if the whole murder was staged by none other than Bruce's father? What if the Wayne family fortune was built on dirty money? What if Alfred only cared for Bruce because he's a perv (or something like that)?
He has to step very lightly, though. Just pushing an extreme concept without any good follow-through will gain you bad publicity and the ire of fans around the world. I'm pretty resilient when it comes to reworking continuities and characters; I only have one prerequisite: they just have to be good. 'Good' being an all-inclusive term for, not ill-contrived, makes sense, and well-written.
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Job
Last edited by Job McBadass on Thu Dec 04, 2008 7:15 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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exsanguinatrix
Mutie
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
Posts: 136
Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:27 pm |
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Job, you're a ray of light. I completely forgot about 52 (still doesn't do anything about my morrison-hate, however. But now there's slightly more sense to his madness).
As for your point about re-imagining a character like bats, who has carved himself a batman-sized hole in pop-culture, personally I'd like to see him kill someone. The joker, Alfred, Hurt --whoever. Whether or not accidental or caused by him smoking crack. And only once. This is important. Because we know bats doesn't kill, so what happens when he does. Suddenly Grayson/ Drake/ Azrael/ Babs/ virtually everyone will have to see him in a new light. And Bruce himself will have to question his commitment to his quest.
The topic's been touched on by Bruce Wayne: fugitive but that was soft-core 'cause it was Cain what did the killing and framed Wayne for it. But if Batman kills as Batman, the whole thing is turned upside its head. And it will be epic rainbows shooting from everyone's ass, I promise you.
As for the joker being sexy, wtf the bullet scar on his forehead. LOLOLOL I CANT B KILLD.
(sidebar: me and the ex were talking last night. he said something along the lines of, if joker killed bats, no one would complain. Then Dick can take the mantle and joker would go I KNEW YOU'RE IMMORTAL LIKE MEEEE and the ball keeps rolling without Bruce. And then I had to concede that my ex makes more sense than morrison, making me hate morrison even more.) |
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Job McBadass
Douche (Retired)
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
Posts: 920
Location: In the Moment
Thu Dec 04, 2008 7:59 pm |
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| exsanguinatrix wrote: | | But if Batman kills as Batman, the whole thing is turned upside its head. And it will be epic rainbows shooting from everyone's ass, I promise you. |
Oh, I believe you. Whatever may happen, it will bring a hot, steaming pile of character development to the table. I mean, Batman deserves my Respeck Knuckles for being so awesome and all, but he desperately needs more meat to him.
I submit to your perusal: Dini's Detective Comics run. It was great, ovations. I absolutely loved his run; he did wonders to the character, extended and deepened his relationships with his fellow heroes, his villains (that Batmobile ride with Harley was careless whisper), and his city. it was basically an All-Star Superman treatment for Batman.
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Job |
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exsanguinatrix
Mutie
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
Posts: 136
Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:38 pm |
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Dude, I read that. That is, if you're referring to Death and the City and that other Dini masterpiece. Even the stint with Zattana was fantastic.
I have yet to read a crappy Dini comic, in fact. Such a thing must exist, but I haven't found it yet.
Another sidebar: Arkham Asylum the video game's going to be written by Dini. Sadly, it's for PC, Xbox and PS3 only. |
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Sir Pepoy Josepito
Super Special Awesome
Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 603
Location: in sanity
Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:05 am |
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I just read Batman 682 and it basically affirms Grant Morrison taking just about EVERYTHING that has happened in Batman's 70 year history as in continuity.
Anyway, I don't know about the "evil and dissonance" being an external source. Bruce looked "inside himself", in the recesses of his mind, into the darkness, and found a "hole"... where he ultimately finds that "pure source of evil"... the Devil himself. That and what he confesses to the monk in Nanda Parbat in the form of the question "Have you ever tried to do only good, and found things just got worse? Could I have been, even unconsciously, my own worst enemy?"
This, to me, seems to point to Bruce somehow knowing that the circumstances of his parents' death wasn't as simple as "being at the wrong place at the wrong time" and that he has actively blocked it all out to justify his "noble cause" to rid Gotham of crime. It's like what Job posited as to what Bruce might decide to do. The whole "stewing in fantasy" choice. Except what I'm saying is... is that he's already made that choice since the very beginning. He And since he's been doing it for so long, never forgetting to tell himself that what he's doing is right and that he did it because of the right reason (his parents, his good and honorable parents, were killed by an element of crime), that it has reached his innermost being and has become the "truth" to him.
As I have found out in the most recent issue, 682, Bruce willingly volunteered to take part in that "isolation/sensory-deprivation experiment" because of what happened with the 50's Batwoman (just read 682!), not just because he wanted to know what death is like so he could be ready for it. The isolation experiment was where Dr. Hurt studied Batman's "moves" and motivation to find out how Batman "ticks" and to use that knowledge for the 3 replacement Bat-men... all of whom ultimately failed when they fought Batman at that time. They lacked "the rage and the sorrow" that drove Bruce. Hurt's solution was to inflict pain on them to induce the rage and the sorrow, killing the family of the first one, "Bat-Cop", and force-feeding the second one, "Bat-Bane" with Venom and "Monster Men" serum that drove him to kill his own family. We just don't know what Hurt exactly did with the mysterious third Bat replacement. Anyway, Hurt used hypnotic suggestions to make Batman forget the whole experiment.
What I'm getting at with mentioning that ordeal is that Bruce seems to have REAL PROBLEMS dealing with traumatizing events... so much that he is willing to deny the cold and harsh reality... the truth, and he has replaced it with his own version of the truth and he does not see it in any other way. And this has been the case ever since. Not until Hurt brought it all hurtling back with his letting loose of the replacement Bat-men and the "shocking documents" about the alleged truth of Bruce's parents and Alfred. This is him "forcing the world to make sense". If his parents and Alfred were really "criminals", that would undermine his very reason for becoming Batman.
This is what's eating at him. This is the "scar in his consciousness". The "hole in his mind waiting to open up and swallow him whole". That his reason for dressing up as a flying rodent, beating up hooligans in dark alleys and fighting madmen in colorful costumes, is all based on a lie he told himself. Good intentions founded on evil. He couldn't let go of this "fantasy" he had way back as a boy, being a masked vigilante like Zorro, but because of these recent events, he's taken one step closer to finally giving up.
This is just one theory that could possibly direct us to what the "most shocking thing in Batman's 70 year history".
682 also tells us that Darkseid plans on using Batman as the template for an unstoppable army.
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Sir Pepoy Josepito
Super Special Awesome
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Location: in sanity
Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:17 am |
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And this is a very interesting analysis/theory of the whole thing taken from the CBR forums from a user that goes by the handle "Death by Mime".
First part is his initial response to the ending.
What a bizarre ending this was.
For me, the entire arc up till this point was about breaking down the very concept of Batman. Why is he breaking down? Why is the Black Glove able to get to him? Because Batman as a character is fundamentally unsustainable. He's this traumatized child who vowed on his parents' graves to become strong and fast and prepared for everything, so that he could prevent anything bad from ever happening again. So he became the Bat-god, the master of prep-time. The guy who keeps files on how to take out all his teammates, just in case. The guy who built Brother Eye. This obsessive, paranoid dick who can't have a healthy life because he's constantly pushing himself towards an unattainable perfection.
The R.I.P. arc seemed to be making the point that this kind of lifestyle was killing him. Because he is constantly pushing himself, mentally, physically, psychologically, to the point of exhaustion. The trigger word, implanted because he underwent a dangerous experiment to try and understand and anticipate the Joker better. And even the trigger word was just that - a trigger. "All we have to do now is push," Doctor Hurt says, "And Batman self-destructs." The Thogal death ritual. His constant morbid preparation for a thousand different hypothetical death scenarios. The paranoid fantasy of an unseen enemy out there always one step ahead of him, plotting his demise. A pair of Cray supercomputers running constantly trying to derive meaning out of a pair of aces and eights, Batman cramming numerology, folklore, fortune telling, Qabala, trying to find some hidden pattern.
But the big joke is - as Joker tells him in the asylum - is that there is no bigger meaning. Batman's driving himself crazy looking for clues where there are none, trying, as the child who swore a vow on his parents' graves, to take a violent chaotic world and force it to make sense. It's an impossible goal, but Batman refuses to acknowledge it and instead keeps pushing himself harder and harder and harder. Until he's finally so overloaded that all the Black Glove needed to do was push in the right place, and he collapsed under his own weight.
With his mind is broken, his mansion ransacked, his allies captured or on the run, drugged and wandering the streets and finding his way back to the scene of his parents' murder, we see the scared little boy who once was go retreating into his invulnerable fantasy figure once more. Only this time there's no pretense that it's a workable strategy. It's a pure fantasy figure, red and purple and yellow, a Batman from another planet with super-strength and invulnerability and the Bat-radia that sees through all your self-deception.
And when the Batman of Zur-en-arrh collapses in the asylum, poisoned flower petals slowly fluttering down on him, it seems for a second that maybe this time, Batman will get the joke. This whole adventure, he's been fighting against the specter of his father, facing the devil, facing Hurt itself. The dark suggestion that maybe his parents weren't the icons of goodness he's made them into, that maybe the entire life he's made for himself as Batman is just "a disturbed little boy's response to his parents' death," as his girlfriend of the month tells him. Maybe, just maybe, Bruce Wayne will finally be able to look back on his career as Batman and laugh, see the absurdity of it all, and start living again. Maybe he can finally die, give in to the one big joke, and maybe be reborn without the tentacles of his obsession clinging to him. Maybe the obsessive, paranoid, disturbed little boy who swore a vow to his dead parents finally gets to lie down and not have to get up again.
I wanted this. I had such hope.
And then issue 681, and it turns out Batman was prepared for this the whole time! Broken, drugged, and buried alive, he just steels himself up and batmans his way through it! The Bat-radia? A secret transmitter this whole time! Getting captured and drugged and poisoned, his allies being put in harm's way? All part of the plan! Jezebel Jet? Remember kids, if you find yourself falling for a woman, she's got to be evil! Secretly do a full background check on her and steal her personal letter from her dying mother! Even the Joker, he of the perpetually shifting personalities, gleefully admits that there's just no way to get out of the elaborate boxes Batman constructs! But what of the inherent futility of his mission, the helpless childish obsession that makes him push himself to his absolute mental limits? Ha! He's the goddamn Batman! He can do anything with enough prep time! The disturbed little boy Jezebel Jet described? She's secretly evil! Nothing she says is of any value!
Then Batman is face to face with the mastermind of the whole plot, the elusive shadowy stalker of Batman's paranoid fantasies, the malignant foe who anticipated his every move. This is the man who seems to have an intimate understanding of Batman, the dark embodiment of his weakness, the living suggestion that maybe Batman is broken and insane. I am your father, Hurt tells him. Batman's response? No, you're Mangrove Pierce, exposition, exposition. You're nothing special, Batman tells him, just another rich lunatic.
And then Hurt / the devil / Thomas Wayne makes a really weird threat, considering what he's put Batman through already. What about your parents' reputation, Hurt says. What about Alfred's? What about your life as Bruce Wayne?
Don't care, Batman says.
And Hurt is reduced to screaming, 'Curse you, curse your infallible Batman persona, and I hope you die in it!' as Batman leaps at Hurt's helicopter and puts a fist through the window and sends the entire thing crashing down in a fiery explosion, because Batman can beat up the devil himself! And Batman's dead, or maybe not, but it doesn't really matter either way. Because he's already gone through death, and he emerged from his grave ... basically the same as he was before he went in.
Man, this was a depressing conclusion.
and this part is a summed-up analysis
Does anyone else think the ending was supposed to be, like, sarcastic?
The rest of the arc is about how maybe being Batman is unhealthy. How his endless prep-time is unhealthy. The death simulations. The isolation chamber experiment. Dual Cray computers trying to figure out a dead man's hand. The point is that Batman's putting himself through intense mental stress in a vain attempt to force a chaotic, violent world to make sense. And because of all the stress he puts himself through, the Black Glove is able to sneak in and press the right buttons and make him collapse under his own weight.
And issue #680 seemed to be the potential for change. Batman getting the joke. Loosening up. Recognizing the absurdity of his futile obsession. Sure, maybe Batman dies. But maybe Bruce Wayne gets to have a life and stop being the paranoid dick who built Brother Eye and keeps files on how to defeat all his teammates.
And then 681, and the story suddenly transforms from a character dissection, into an action movie finale. Batman reveals he was prepared for everything, exposition, exposition, and all his paranoia and planning is totally vindicated. In the face of all the doubts cast upon his character, he simply replies, 'I'm Batman, and I was playing along the whole time' and all the shadows fade away into a bunch of quivering rich perverts. Even the Joker shrugs and throws up his hands and admits that, ha ha, you can't change Batman! That guy's too nuts!
It's like the end of Adaptation., where after spending most of the movie self-referentially struggling with his capacity as a writer, Charlie Kaufman takes his (fictional) twin brother's advice, and ends the thing with a car chase and a shoot-out and everything ends happily ever after. Except, y'know, it doesn't. None of the issues raised in the first act have been resolved, they've just been displaced and ignored in favor of a grand finale, because there is no resolution otherwise.
That's what the ending felt like to me. Batman emerges from his grave, completely freaking unchanged, and ignores all the issues raised in an absolutely ludicrous display of prep-time. Being a paranoid dick and stealing your girlfriend's letters from her dying mother is a totally valid way to go about life. Because everyone really is evil and everyone really is out to get you. He looks straight at the chance for death/rebirth, at the possibility that maybe his career as Batman is possibly a crazy messed-up thing, and says, 'Nah, you're just Mangrove Pierce, a crazy old actor,' and leaps at him fist first.
So is this the fate worse than death? To be unable to change? To be Batman forever and forever and forever? Batman will never die. He's one of DC's most iconic characters; they're not going to let him. So in the end, he leaps on board the helicopter with the Devil and his dark reflection, Hurt cursing him to die as an obsessive paranoid dick, and goes out the only way a comic book icon can - in a fiery explosion with no bodies found afterwards.
Zur-en-Arrh. Zorro in Arkham. The possibility that maybe, just maybe, Batman is nuts. A possibility raised, and then ignored in favor of a righteous beat-down. A possibility left unaddressed, because maybe there really is no resolution to it.
Do I actually have a point, or am I just your poetry myself here?
Amusing and it actually does raise some good points.
Anyway, it's funny, really, how appropriate the Joker points out "apophenia". Looking for a pattern, some semblance of sanity in the whole thing. I don't think there has been as much discussion all over the comic book world about Batman in a very long time. Oh, Grant Morrison and his love for "meta". And the whole thing hasn't even been given an absolute conclusion!
Oh and what's also funny is, if Hurt really was the literal "Devil", it's a hilarious comparison to how Marvel handled the "dealing with the Devil" bit. Marvel's poster boy basically gives in, has his 40 year history retconned, and is back to being a pathetic young man struggling with his powers and still living with his aunt... while DC's arguably most famous hero basically says "careless whisper YOU!" and takes the Devil down.
Irrefutable evidence that Batman > Spider-Man!!!
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exsanguinatrix
Mutie
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
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Fri Dec 05, 2008 6:50 am |
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Wow. The analysis above were pretty hardcore. Those were great points that I didn't see through the fog of hate blocking out my vision while reading the comic. But everyone seems to agree that the conclusion was crap.
The bit about Bats being a loon deep, deep down reminds me of Miller's Allstar run. Despite the crap I talk about it, it does raise the point of Bruce being irreparably, creepily damaged by the trauma of seeing his 'rents killed so he grows up with all sorts of hang-ups, delusions of grandeur (He's the goddamn batman after all), tendency for violence and abuse, whatever else.
That said... I dunno, nothing can save this crappy writing for me. Although the discourses about it is kicking ass.
Which leads me to this part of speculation. When Bruce comes back ('cause he's not really dead, right? Right, Joseph?  ) are we going to be seeing the same batman, or a cheerier one silver age style, a mentally retarded one, or one that's going to embody god ('cause the joker pulled a Beatles and said he's better than the devil)? |
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Job McBadass
Douche (Retired)
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
Posts: 920
Location: In the Moment
Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:44 pm |
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How about a well-adjusted Batman with no fragmented personalities, or schizophrenic outbursts?
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love,
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exsanguinatrix
Mutie
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
Posts: 136
Sat Dec 06, 2008 9:57 am |
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wouldn't that be golden age batman?
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Holy bad acid trip, Batman. |
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Job McBadass
Douche (Retired)
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
Posts: 920
Location: In the Moment
Thu Dec 25, 2008 10:31 am |
| Post subject: R.I.P. Bookend: Batman 683 |
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Manly tears. Just... manly tears.
This is the best conclusion this specific story arc could have. Morrison made Batman the definitive Ubermensch; he took everything the world that dish out to the gut, everything that would make anyone else break down and rock softly in a piss-stained corner with a superhuman resilience. And he came out alive; he either came out batarangs flinging everywhere, doing crazy ninja your poetry that would Bruce Lee say, "Dayuum.", or he ambled like a crippled giant, clutching a stab wound and coughing up blood. The point is, he came out alive, and he was much better for it.
This is not a story of how Batman died, this is the story of what kept him alive.
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love,
Job |
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exsanguinatrix
Mutie
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
Posts: 136
Thu Dec 25, 2008 11:45 am |
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Ahh! Job! You had me shouting "863! 863!" on Christmas morning. I will read this just after the traditional christmas lunch and when the rest of the family leaves so I don't look too much like a freak.
God bless ye merry gentlemen. ^_^
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Holy bad acid trip, Batman. |
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Sir Pepoy Josepito
Super Special Awesome
Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 603
Location: in sanity
Thu Dec 25, 2008 1:05 pm |
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I am hoping to actually buy this one and not get spoiled.
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Job McBadass
Douche (Retired)
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
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Thu Dec 25, 2008 7:42 pm |
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"'Alfred' he said not long ago. 'If anyone asks for an obituary, tell them Batmans's big secret was the classic whodunnit.'"
"Only, its not about who killed Batman but who kept him alive all these years."
Get it? In the classic whodunits, it was always the butler.
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Sir Pepoy Josepito
Super Special Awesome
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Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:31 pm |
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I just read the soft copy since shipping was delayed in the local comic book stores.
That was beautiful. I honestly cannot wait now for FC#6.
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Job McBadass
Douche (Retired)
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
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Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:11 pm |
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Agreed.
Compared to Secret Invasion, FC has a stronger main storyline and very few good tie-ins. Last Rites has to be one of its best. The way they connected it to RIP was ingenious. With stories like these, Marvel has to pick up the slack and buck up.
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love,
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Sir Pepoy Josepito
Super Special Awesome
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Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:20 pm |
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Did you read FC: Rogues Revenge? I've only read one story arc of Flash and Rogues Revenge got me to care and respect the Rogues. That was one badass story.
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Job McBadass
Douche (Retired)
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Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:50 am |
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Oh, yeah. Definitely. Rogues Revenge is one of the good ones (can't stand the cheeky Legion of Superheroes and their gimmicky 3d-glasses-required issue). They're one of the few well-oiled supervillain teams that can actually get things done, and done right.
Len Snart is acold careless whisper.
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Sir Pepoy Josepito
Super Special Awesome
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Location: in sanity
Wed Dec 31, 2008 10:25 pm |
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The "gimmicky 3d-glasses-required issue" is the jarring Superman Beyond 2-parter. I like the Legion of Superheroes mini "Legion of 3 Worlds" simply because of SUPERBOY-PRIME. But the gaps between the issues are just so long.
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Job McBadass
Douche (Retired)
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
Posts: 920
Location: In the Moment
Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:20 am |
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Sorry for getting this thread derailed, but have you read A Meeting with the Rogues?
It features a nice slice of Rogue life.
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