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taonggyera
You Can't Stop The Anger
Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 324
Sat Mar 07, 2009 7:55 pm |
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Job.
The actual rating ( as of this date : 3/7/09 ) was actually 65 %. And that's from a sizeable amount of people.
Oh, and Roger Ebert gives this movie 4 out of 4 stars.
Actually, what seems to be consensus, funny enough, is that practically ALL of them are saying it is otherwise a GREAT FILM. The central nitpick is as to whether it is the ' great film ' they would be willing to accept. And it is just a bit unfortunate, in Zach Snyder's case, that there is indeed a graphic novel with which to pick on it with - not only in terms of standard, or basis, or point of comparison, so much as means with which to simply discredit the film. Even to spite him.
Some would use that to seemingly hide their honest feelings about an otherwise superhero film, while remaining so damn smart and intelligensia ( ' the book is genius Cold War rumination ' wankery ), while others to simply project their hateful bias against ALL THAT IS COMICS. ( i.e. careless whisper New Yorker. These pearl-tugging, caviar humping shills would need ' Slumdog Millionaire ' to soothe their worries..... ).
I mean, look. Richard Corliss from Time Magazine says this. And I paraphrase :
" Watchmen is about bits and pieces; the bits magnificent, the pieces glorious. But ultimately, this ' Watchmen ' is just swatchmen. "
Jesus Christ. What the careless whisper is that even suppose to careless whisper mean?
Most annoying, however, are those who clearly don't just want the ' superhero film genre ' to succeed, or gain it's legitimacy and proper place alongside the Westerns, and romance, and gangsters, and even science fiction.
One sentiment that was made considerably clear, for example, is that Watchmen should have stayed as the Alan Moore work. Ergo : the ' complex, complicated superhero flick ' should REMAIN ON THE PAGE.
Tad bit too condescending, I believe, but testament that this Snyder adaptation may have indeed intimidated some, hence really careless whisper worked. When you got a buncha pussies screaming, and running back to ' 300 ' , longing for simpler days where cinema and the world would fit their pathetic, feeble-minded claims, then we may got something else entirely.
Thing is, most these stuff I've been getting on the nets just convinces me that the ' Watchmen ' movie may indeed be a total classic.
It would be advisable, though, to really put down that comic for a while... |
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Sir Pepoy Josepito
Super Special Awesome
Joined: 02 Dec 2008
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Location: in sanity
Sat Mar 07, 2009 9:00 pm |
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here's what I posted in another forum
First off, the good stuff.
The beginning of the film is one of the best I've ever seen. Everything from the Comedian's murder and the actual intro credits for the movie is great. I didn't mind all the "kung-fu" and slo-mo sequences with the Comedian's murder. "Unforgettable" playing in the background was a great touch.
Jackie Earle Haley was clearly the best actor. He was Rorschach. The raw, guttural, monotone voice did not sound grating at all throughout the entire movie, unlike Bale's Batman voice in TDK even with the relatively few lines he had. The scenes where he was the central figure were all top-notch, especially the scene where he was caught in the trap by the police. The movie also managed to make him even "sicker" an individual with the brutality shown.
Jeffrey Dean Morgan, in all the scenes he was in, also pretty much captured the character he was playing. He really played the role of the cold-hearted manga by Kazushi Hagiwara!! Comedian well in every scene that he was a cold-hearted manga by Kazushi Hagiwara!!, especially the riot scene. I even felt real sorry for the character when he was getting his ass kicked by Ozymandias in the beginning. Only fault was his "crying" scene in front of Moloch. He didn't quite hit that emotional note of a cynical character finally breaking down after finding out the reality of Ozy's plans. Everything else was great, though.
Billy Crudup as Dr. Manhattan was surprisingly great, his performance just right below Morgan's. When I first heard his voice during the trailers, I thought that they already got it wrong, thinking that a powerful god-like voice would've been better suited for the character. But Crudup's soft voice turned out to be perfect in portraying the "soullessness" of Manhattan and, gradually, the emotion that built up in the character, something which a strong and booming voice wouldn't have achieved now that I think about it. His whole character background with the flashback scenes was actually the sequence that touched me the most in the entire movie.
I was very skeptical when I first heard the news that the ending was going to be changed, especially when I found out that it was supposed to be Manhattan that was going to be the one directly responsible. I was pleasantly surprised. First, with the fact that Manhattan really wasn't directly responsible and second, that it actually made sense and, dare I say it, had a better "long-term" solution instead of GIANT ALIEN SQUID. With the whole world knowing for sure that Manhattan is a real threat and that he could do anything he wanted, any place, any time, even if he already left Earth, the effect of "world peace" lasts longer than a supposed alien invasion that only happened in New York and that would've been put into question if an all-out invasion didn't occur anytime soon. The destruction wrought throughout the world in the major cities had a bigger effect of uniting the world.
The visuals were all great, no doubt about that, especially everything that happened in Mars with Dr. Manhattan. The brutality and sexuality was really played up here, compared to the graphic novel, but it didn't detract from the quality of the movie at all. Most of the costumes were perfect and it was nice to see the rest of the Minutemen in their goofy outfits in the movie. I was a bit put-off by the "Schumacher-esque" costumes of the 2nd Nite Owl and Ozymandias when I first saw them but it didn't bother me at all during the actual film. Fight choreography was amazing, even if it was something that I wasn't fully expecting (or even looking forward to), especially from Rorschach, but it was awesome to watch.
As for the bad stuff...
Malin Akerman as Silk Spectre II is easily the weakest part of the entire film. There was absolutely no emotional register coming from her. Worst acting I've seen in quite a while. She looked gorgeous, no doubt about that, but she could not act at all. Just about all her delivery, her facial expressions, it all felt forced. Her supposed "crying" scene after finding out Edward Blake was her father felt extremely fake and had no follow-up at all. That line of hers she says to Ozy at the final moments, "You're an donkey pub," was one of the weakest deliveries. It didn't help that in that scene she pulls a gun from out of nowhere to shoot Ozy with. In the graphic novel, she picks the gun up from one of the bodies in the ruins of New York. No explanation here. Anyway, Akerman was just flat throughout the entire film.
Her "mother" Sally Jupiter, played by Carla Gugino, wasn't any better. Her acting bits all felt forced... and there's nothing much else to say about her. 'Cept that she was actually pretty hot... >_>
The pacing of the movie was off and I felt that the plot was probably hard to follow to anyone that didn't read the graphic novel. Too much stuff was happening, even for a movie that clocked in around 3 hours. The lead-up to the revelation of the "villain" being Ozymandias felt rushed. Even the whole "I triggered it 35 minutes ago" line lost its impact. Also didn't like how some of the scenes transitioned into another. I guess that's the biggest problem with translating any book (and in the case of the scene transitions, any comic book) to a film and Watchmen did suffer from this. The whole thing probably would've been better as a 12 episode mini-series.
As for everything else that I have mixed feelings on...
Besides the choreography of the fights themselves, I didn't like the use of slow-motion effects in some of the fight scenes. Snyder really loves using it and the saying that "less is more" is something he really should've considered in filming some of the fight scenes. I also didn't like the exaggeration of their strength, especially with Ozymandias in the final fight scenes. I mean, GOD, their bodies were FLYING all over the place. None of them had super-strength, Snyder! One thing that the movie did better in the final scenes was Ozy catching the bullet. Looked much more realistic, instead of Ozy randomly jumping into the air, saying HIYAAAA, as he catches the bullet.
The brutality and sexuality was really played up in the movie. I didn't think they could have made that scene with Big Figure and his goons trying to get to Rorschach any more brutal but they did. And I'm thinking all that was done to help sell the movie to the masses, but I don't think it really detracted from the quality of the movie.
Patrick Wilson as Dan Dreiberg was good enough, I guess, although I was looking for a bit more "patheticness" from the character. The scene after Ozymandias' plan comes to fruition and Dr. Manhattan finally vaporizes Rorschach, when Dan goes berserk did feel pretty real and was surprisingly good for something that wasn't in the graphic novel.
Matthew Goode as Ozymandias was... eh. He did have that "noble" and "dignified pompousness" to him that the character in the graphic novel had. But he just didn't have the look. He was too much of a pretty boy, IMO. That accent didn't help. But the biggest problem he had was that he lacked screen time. I didn't have much emotional investment in the guy so even when he was finally triumphant, it didn't have the same impact as it did in the comics. He also barely showed any emotion. He just didn't have that development that the character in the graphic novel had. And the one thing that really irked me was the writers' decision to make him the leader of the "Watchmen". It just gave away the "mask-killer" mystery.
oh, and the music was also a mixed bag
some of the songs fit the scenes, some didn't
AND I WAS ESPECIALLY ANNOYED WITH MCR ENDING THE MOVIE
Overall, it was an enjoyable film. There are a couple of great performances here and the visuals are stunning. The film basically lifts pages from the graphic novel, making it one of the more faithful adaptations, and the changes to the plot actually make sense and fit the story just right. The plot does get a bit muddled up, seeing as how they had to compress 12 chapters of story into 3 hours, so those that haven't read the graphic novel might get lost. That and the fact that a couple of major characters get mediocre performances from their actors drag the film down.
At the very least, you'll get a treat out of the visuals. And you just might pick up the book, if you haven't read it, which I think is a much better piece of work.
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exsanguinatrix
Mutie
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
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Sun Mar 08, 2009 4:08 am |
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Bits and pieces repost from my blog:
Alan Moore turned the whole comics genre on its head with Watchmen. For that, he deserves the utmost respect. What he has done, he has proven that superheros and comics as a medium is capable of discourse previously thought only applicable to 'legitimate' literature. What Moore has done, he has transcended his medium (comics). He has made his superhero characters farcical, the whole plot carnivalesque to the form. These things, he has to do to deconstruct not just the superhero genre but the comics form as well. This may be the only true graphic novel I have read (in the same way Hollis Mason said Doctor Manhattan's arrival signaled the dawn of the 'super' hero). Moore's Watchmen is what a novel looks like when it uses pop culture to satirizes pop culture.
Now. Snyder. The guy behind the camera of Frank Miller's Sin City and The 300. We know him, we know what he's capable of, and what he's good at. He's good at making comic book movies. He got it right in Sin City --the texture and colors of the art, every grit and retarded grime of Miller's dialogue, the fratboy-sick sensibility of gore and violence. He got it right in the homoerotic spectacle that was the 300. I could ramble about signifier/ signified, subject/ object, gaze, etc on these two movies, but that would be missing the point. Snyder is good with pop culture. He's popcorn fodder and he's very good at it.
Watchmen the movie was Snyder's Watchmen. Not Alan Moore's. Was it good? That depends. Do you like comics?
I appreciated Snyder's version of Watchmen. It was the most correct possible adaptation of Watchmen the comic book. Snyder does not want to transcend his medium (film), he wants to bend it to his whim. Hollywood has a much steeper set of constraints on the creative process than comics. He succeeds in that. But Snyder's Watchmen patronizes its pop-culture.
Snyder has made a very good superhero comic book movie. The gore, the gratuity, the gaudy outfits, and that same mesmerizing slow-mo/ fast-forward editing technique he used in the 300's action sequences were all calibrated to pin-point accuracy to pander to comic book fans.
Point: for Carlo about Snyder's style of slow-mo/ fast-forward action sequences and gore --- can Snyder now be considered auteur? Assuming, of course, that we are all-encompassing comic book fans and not elitist film critics.
Point: for everyone-- anyone have any idea how the people who haven't read the comic found the film? Was it incomprehensible, did it suck hairy balls, or was it good? Maybe we shouldn't be looking at this as fans of the work. 
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The Goddamn
Insert Your Expletive Here!
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
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Location: I live on the second floor
Sun Mar 08, 2009 5:30 am |
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Saw it last night. Asked friend who hadn't read book. Said it was awesome movie. Understood plot all the way through.
I agree with Mixka, pretty much. Stupid My Chemical Romance. Most, if not all the scenes with Rorschach in them were incredible. Loved Manhattan.
Pardon the sparseness, but a lot has already been said, both in person and online. Can't really add much more to that.
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taonggyera
You Can't Stop The Anger
Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 324
Sun Mar 08, 2009 9:32 am |
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I have watched the Watchmen.
It was fine. It wasn't great. What it did right ( and there are several ), it did spectacularly.
That being said, the single, unanimous complaint amongst me and family members who watched this was the ENDING.
It's not even the McGuffin, or the potentially troubling moral questions, or how downbeat and defeatist it went, or whether the squid would have saved it.
It was the entire damn presentation.
For a film criticized for being too focused on the visuals, it doesn't show the major point of Watchmen, itself, and as in REALLY SHOW IT:
Meaning, though we hear about it being mentioned one or two times, we don't actually see WWIII on the horizon. We don't even see it near damn happening.
You're not presented with enough visual information to show the two major powerful nations are hell bent towards Mutually Assured Destruction, and are about to take earth along with them . There is no build-up , no progression on the socio-political or military end, no fast spinning, mortifying string of events to make apparent that human beings are on the verge of killing each other ( something the novel did so expertly ). There seems to be no escalation occuring at all, phenomenologically or plot-wise - w/c is what the story, with its cues, its doomsday clock motifs, is about and structurally built on.
If the film is to be believed, that oncoming Armageddon would be some war room, throwaway blurbs, Richard Nixon's nose, and Ozymandiaz' rambling.
So the climax would be in the context of WHAT ?
Alan Moore was no Michael Bay, but at least he had the good sense to at least put in a shot or two of U.S. Airforce pilots running to their jets , or a Radar screen cutaway, so that people would at least know what he's getting at.
And Russia was moving it's troops into Pakistan.
It's really from this point where Snyder's Watchmen nosedived from the truly fresh, no-holds-barred, remarkably grounded superhero film and narrative the likes of which has never been before ( if future filmmakers would be looking for something to stoke them, it sjould be THIS aspect ), to a cross between the very definition of telegraphed storytelling, and ennui-based ineptitude along the lines of ' Superman Begins ' and ' The Hulk ', and for non-Superhero fare, ' United 91 'where both action and plot aren't fully realized, lotsa things got held back too much, and events are excessively left to implication. ' Art film ', yes, but not exactly the recommendable kind. And it's a damn shame.
Yes, the MCR song compounds this problem as well. It's otherwise upbeat, rousing, and rebellious vibe is largely inappropriate ( especially amidst the film's tone, which is consistently gloomy and drab ). And it deliberately goads us to cheer, now that dear old Rorsharch has won & all, and scored a major comeuppance. But, what is there for the audience to cheer or react to at this point ? The plot's relevance just disappeared. From a critical moment onwards, it just stopped intimating it's full breadth to you.
What is maddening about all of this, is that it's ENTIRELY SALVAGEABLE.
( They could have at least thrown some scenes of the several New Yorker passersby tearing each other apart around that comic-reading kid and the news vendor ( like in the book ), to punctuate the sense of willful extinction and the inevitability of Ozy's act. Put those between Ozy and Night Owl 2's fight sequence, so you get this nice meta commentary on the limited nature of the superhero mindset, and its' manifestations on a street level going on.... )
Last edited by taonggyera on Sun Mar 08, 2009 3:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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exsanguinatrix
Mutie
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
Posts: 136
Sun Mar 08, 2009 9:45 am |
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See it today, Mikko. On your own. And then again with Mica. 
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The Goddamn
Insert Your Expletive Here!
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
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Location: I live on the second floor
Sun Mar 08, 2009 10:32 am |
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There's something wrong with our forums... Goddamn timestamps are off.
Mikko. I second Mixka. But if you can't (afford to?) watch it a second time, I recommend watching it with Mica. Seriously. If you must, watch it first on a downloaded cam version; that way the second viewing with Mica is still magical because your initial screening had crap visuals!
Hah. Do it. Do it now.
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Job McBadass
Douche (Retired)
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
Posts: 920
Location: In the Moment
Sun Mar 08, 2009 11:16 am |
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| exsanguinatrix wrote: | | Point: for everyone-- anyone have any idea how the people who haven't read the comic found the film? Was it incomprehensible, did it suck hairy balls, or was it good? Maybe we shouldn't be looking at this as fans of the work. |
Read Ebert's review. It's adorable how deeply he understands Doctor Manhattan. And as an influential and well-read (watched?) film critic who hasn't read the graphic novel, his two reviews do the film great justice.
On the other end of the accolade spectrum, here's some Debbie Schlussel, complaining about how an R-rated movie ruined her kids' (or her friend's kids, I don't give two your poetry from a lamb's donkey pub, anymore) movie-going experience.
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fnspidey
Guest
Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:58 pm |
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| Awright, careless whisper it. Convince me to see it TODAY, on my own. I can't stand waiting any longer. |
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Uncle Gravy
Filter Fighter
Joined: 12 Dec 2008
Posts: 471
Sun Mar 08, 2009 1:04 pm |
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SPOSSIBLE POILERS
The movie wasn't a waste of money, that's for sure. I'd probably watch it again, in the comfort of my own home, but this probably means that I liked TDK better, since I watched it twice in the cinemas.
I think it's as good as we're going to get, and I think they deserve props for that.
The things that haven't been mentioned yet:
Bubastis. Where the hell did she come from. I didn't see any real need for putting her in the movie, probably just confused a lot of people who didn't read the book. That's why no one really cared when she died in the movie; and Ozzy's emotional line went to waste.
Nixon's nose. Too damn distracting. They got carried away there.
The four-penis'd Doctor Manhattan scene. It was the first (or one of the first? i'm not sure) glimpse of his glorious genitals, after all that selective censorship in his confrontation with Rorschach. You were left thinking, oh ok, so they chose the creative censorship path, and then BAM. It's like saying, "hey, if you can't stand a flaccid blue penis in your movie, better leave now". I heard some people left after that, probably old couples who didn't want to be reminded of their, ahem, power failure problems.
Rorschach's famous line, "I'm not locked up with you," seemed a bit too forced. I don't know, I found it funny, and I apologize to Job and Roja if they were distracted by my laughing. It's as if he felt like he HAD to finish his line, let go of him, dammit, he wants to finish his damn quote!
Ultraviolence and gore. I understand that there had to be fight scenes to appease the people who came to see a superhero movie. The fight scenes were very good, just too misleading, since some of the audience might think that they all had super strength (which was the opposite of what you had to convey, fools! dammit!). Maybe the bone-snapping could be left there, but the brick-wall-crashing was a bit too much.
Finally, nice soundtrack. I APPROVE OF THIS SOUNDTRACK.
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taonggyera
You Can't Stop The Anger
Joined: 13 Jan 2009
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Sun Mar 08, 2009 3:06 pm |
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Though, I must say, this is actually the first film ever made ( for me anyway ) that played out like an actual superhero story - exactly like it would play out in a superhero comic ! Neither heightened horror-sci fi, nor awkward acrobat theatrics, nor evolved crime fiction, nor flying aliens with funny pajama costume. But A SUPERHERO one - where a protagonists punch could drive a hole through someones skull, and argumentation is made through beat-em-up fights. And it's careless whisper AMAZING ! To me, it's one of the film's major significant achievement/ special contribution to the sub-genre, and it's one that had the least to do with the graphic novel itself.
( Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons specifically designed the comic to AVOID. But, what the hell. I like these reversals. Makes things more interesting. After all, why replicate the live-action-movie treatment on a live-action-movie ? It's just redundant. In the same way it's revolutionary to apply movie-values on a comic book, so is it to apply comic-book-values on a movie. Makes a lot of sense. ).
And Ive been DYING to see a film like that. One that you always sorta wanted ever since you were a child that an X-men comic book film, or Superman, or even a Batman move would have been more like, and wish won't cheat out on you this time through propped up message, pretentious wankery, fancy poses, and gaudy sets ( see Bryan Singer ), and only being ' superhero ' by implication ( theyre in costume. and there's those names...)
Something that you always thought can only be achieved with bodybuilders ( both men and women ) in the lead, or through laborious sfx that has not been invented yet ( and not even the T2 or T3 kind, great as it was, which is more like a buncha humanoid robots fighting, not superheroes ).
It's the resulting feel of added density & weight, and physical gravitas Snyder et al has applied which ultimately brings this thing home, as the characters appear like Ivan Reis, or Sal Buscema, or George Perez, or traditional monthlies would draw them.
I didn't know ramped up slow mo can do that.
( So, you can say Snyder is an auteur in this case, Mixka. He's turned this schtick into something completely his. )
* This is what toned down the various ultraviolent scenes for me and the family, and perhaps, for everyone else in the cinema. You get the sense that all these types can always take it, much as they've been dishing it out for a long time, can probably endure these things, and thus can be safely appreciated from the special logic of their fiction. A genius conceit, indeed, w/c would automatically identify the characters even while in normal garb, hinting at shared history and placement with no need for further exposition. Helps the plot's traction, and credibility a lot.
A realist variant of these action scenes would have gotten this film NC-17, no doubt. And, more of the same. |
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Sir Pepoy Josepito
Super Special Awesome
Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 603
Location: in sanity
Sun Mar 08, 2009 3:24 pm |
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| taonggyera wrote: |
For a film criticized for being too focused on the visuals, it doesn't show the major point of Watchmen, itself, and as in REALLY SHOW IT:
Meaning, though we hear about it being mentioned one or two times, we don't actually see WWIII on the horizon. We don't even see it near damn happening.
You're not presented with enough visual information to show the two major powerful nations are hell bent towards Mutually Assured Destruction, and are about to take earth along with them . There is no build-up , no progression on the socio-political or military end, no fast spinning, mortifying string of events to make apparent that human beings are on the verge of killing each other ( something the novel did so expertly ). There seems to be no escalation occuring at all, phenomenologically or plot-wise - w/c is what the story, with its cues, its doomsday clock motifs, is about and structurally built on.
If the film is to be believed, that oh-so-scary Armageddon would be some war room, throwaway blurbs, Richard Nixon's nose, and Ozymandiaz' rambling.
So the climax would be in the context of WHAT ?
Alan Moore was no Michael Bay, but at least he had the good sense to at least put in a shot or two of U.S. Airforce pilots running to their jets , or a Radar screen cutaway, so that people would at least know what he's getting at.
And Russia was moving it's troops into Pakistan.
It's really from this point where Snyder's Watchmen nosedived from the truly fresh, no-holds-barred, remarkably grounded superhero film and narrative the likes of which has never been before ( if future filmmakers would be looking for something to stoke them, it sjould be THIS aspect ), to a cross between the very definition of telegraphed storytelling, and ennui-based ineptitude along the lines of ' Superman Begins ' and ' The Hulk ', and for non-Superhero fare, ' United 91 'where both action and plot aren't fully realized, lotsa things got held back too much, and events are excessively left to implication. ' Art film ', yes, but not exactly the recommendable kind. And it's a damn shame.
Yes, the MCR song compounds this problem as well. It's otherwise upbeat, rousing, and rebellious vibe is largely inappropriate ( especially amidst the film's tone, which is consistently gloomy and drab ). And it deliberately goads us to cheer, now that dear old Rorsharch has won & all, and scored a major comeuppance. But, what is there for the audience to cheer or react to at this point ? The plot's relevance just disappeared. From a critical moment onwards, it just stopped intimating it's full breadth to you.
What is maddening about all of this, is that it's ENTIRELY SALVAGEABLE.
( They could have at least thrown some scenes of the several New Yorker passersby tearing each other apart around that comic-reading kid and the news vendor ( like in the book ), to punctuate the sense of willful extinction and the inevitability of Ozy's act. Put those between Ozy and Night Owl 2's fight sequence, so you get this nice meta commentary on the limited nature of the superhero mindset, and its' manifestations on a street level going on.... ) |
I absolutely agree. It's a thought that came to me just last night. The interaction with the people who frequented the newsstand, Hollis' death at the hands of thugs, Rorschach's psychologist losing it, the things that were cut from the movie could've really added much to the fear of the coming Armaggedon.
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The Goddamn
Insert Your Expletive Here!
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
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Sun Mar 08, 2009 4:22 pm |
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| Uncle Gravy wrote: |
Finally, nice soundtrack. I APPROVE OF THIS SOUNDTRACK. |
...
The songs themselves are excellent songs; I love all of them. But in the context? Seriously?
My Chemical Romance ended it for me. Bob Dylan's rolling in his alive grave.
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Batman doesn't have any superpowers... except his money.
Last edited by The Goddamn on Sun Mar 08, 2009 4:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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fnspidey
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Sun Mar 08, 2009 4:23 pm |
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| What? But, but, but Hollis's death was in the trailer...I think... |
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taonggyera
You Can't Stop The Anger
Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 324
Sun Mar 08, 2009 5:05 pm |
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| Sir Pepoy Josepito wrote: | | I absolutely agree. It's a thought that came to me just last night. The interaction with the people who frequented the newsstand, Hollis' death at the hands of thugs, Rorschach's psychologist losing it, the things that were cut from the movie could've really added much to the fear of the coming Armaggedon. |
I mean, where are the U.S. jets ? Or troop movements ? Or ANYTHING ?
It's like when they went visceral, they did went visceral ( I did not think it was over-the-top, this time, but that depends on who is looking ). But when Snyder HAD to really present it, he didn't. Just as when the circumstances demanded that he, you know, go ' 300 ', detailing the full breadth of the destruction and the march towards that, he choose to go scant. Like ' art film ' scant. Like ' the impact of Clark Kent's absence in Superman Returns being a blurb ' scant. Like ' the airplane struggle looking like a mere room full of actors in United 91 ' scant. Like ' the bombast and action ' of what a Hulk rampage should mean being curtailed in Ang Lee's ' Hulk ' scant. And then, some.
I had this sort of minor fit with the supposed ' terrorism ' of the Joker not really killing anybody else in ' The Dark Knight ' ( w/c was immediately resolved upon realizing the ramifications - Gotham still has their patients, but they lost their hospital ), but seriously, this is something else. It's like that corny thing in ' 300 ' where the Spartan warriors don't get exactly bruised. Well, the possible ' invulnerability ' and ' ubermench ' of it really, really worked in ' Watchmen ' ( they ARE superheroes, after all, not some char. in any other genre with a costume ), but the potential undercurrent of ineptitude in it got magnified right at the end, and sort of scarred the rest of the movie - and in a way that wasn't probably intended. This idea of like alluding to magnanimous horrors, but either being too timid, or outright lazy to show the full breadth of it, the full scale of it.
And it should only take a minute or two of cutaways to do that. Why not sneak in those shots of the New York people beating the crap out of each other, to sort of punctuate the nihilist view of Ozy that humans are simply going to eliminate themselves, and something must be done.
From the larger perspective, more than fidelity to the source material, or even the visuals, Snyder invested most his time on the characters. Excessively. And with that, the ending seemed to be more about excoriating and demeaning Ozymandias, and making us all hate him. It glosses over the context of his acts, the tangible socio-political background upon which it is taking place, and the events upon which it is all struggling against.
Doesn't help that the character don't exactly get enough lead time to establish himself. Doesn't help as well that the markers you're left with ( that this is a U.S. vs U.S.S.R. thing ), is a Richard Nixon not a lot of today's generation knows about, whose face no one could recognize, and in a world that don't resemble ours AT ALL.
The least Snyder could do is to make the threat at least palpable and tangible enough that we could believe on it too, that, like a meteor, or a serial killer stalking public transportation, it might happen to us, given the same circumstances.
Hence the problem. There is not much scenario.
I'm guessing when both critics and audiences would wind up going a ' meh ', feeling the film either is flat, a waste, or flat-out sucks, it would be THIS part . Fanboys, and plain afficionados of ' Watchmen ', whether choosing this as either an adaptation, or a stand-alone work, nonetheless had the headstart of having read the story prior, and be mindfull of its quirks and intents. They- well, we - would be more than capable of filling the spaces, and connecting the dots in our heads, should the film decide to go lackluster, and only goes by the basic beats. We could construct the grand scheme for ourselves, and enjoy the entire effort. You are less able to say the same thing about the uninitiated, who not only know squat coming into it, but are given very little for them to care about, and grasp what it was going for.
Thus, anybody else could not be expected either cheering or jeering, when all is said and done, because there seems very little to react to, anyways.
It's as if the ending barely happened.
And this is why there is always definite need for a strong finish. That last 20 % could potential kill the merits of the first 80 % or so. Because watching films are investments, and investments demand tangible payoffs. Not to mention the fact that the ending is what viewers take with them first upon leaving the cinemas.
David Mamet said that ' endings must always be both surprising and inevitable '. It is not really that surprising already, but what made this inevitable ?
Last edited by taonggyera on Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:36 am; edited 3 times in total |
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exsanguinatrix
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Sun Mar 08, 2009 9:02 pm |
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Speaking of soundtracks, the opening montage? PRICELESS. Snyder hit that one on the head.
Also, he has managed to make Moore's Watchmen more grimdark than the original. Not as poignant, but the gore/violence upped the ante. He deserves a medal for that. Aaron was right, people were leaving around the time Manhattan's eight balls were on the screen, hur hur.
What I could have done without -- Niteowl's gut and him going 'I need a few minutes'. I would gladly trade that for more wrist-cutting, haha.
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exsanguinatrix
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Sun Mar 08, 2009 9:12 pm |
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| Quote: | | On the other end of the accolade spectrum, here's some Debbie Schlussel, complaining about how an R-rated movie ruined her kids' (or her friend's kids, I don't give two your poetry from a lamb's donkey pub, anymore) movie-going experience. |
This is why no one respects women. 
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Sir Pepoy Josepito
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Sun Mar 08, 2009 11:14 pm |
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| exsanguinatrix wrote: | | Speaking of soundtracks, the opening montage? PRICELESS. Snyder hit that one on the head. |
YES SO HARD
I'd watch the film again for the entire first 15 or so minutes.
Actually, I do have this nagging feeling of wanting to watch it again...
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taonggyera
You Can't Stop The Anger
Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 324
Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:10 am |
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| Sir Pepoy Josepito wrote: | | exsanguinatrix wrote: | | Speaking of soundtracks, the opening montage? PRICELESS. Snyder hit that one on the head. |
YES SO HARD
I'd watch the film again for the entire first 15 or so minutes.
Actually, I do have this nagging feeling of wanting to watch it again... |
careless whisper your poetry. DEFINITELY.
He didn't just hit that over the head. He sledgehammered the skull, and drove its shards right out of the eyelids.
Mindblowing, and in ways hyperbole itself cannot rationalize.
I was eating popcorn while being engrossed at that opening Comedian fight ( which was bugnuts brilliant ), and when this careless whisper thing kicked right in, everything just stopped. I have never seen anything jaw-dropping in my entire careless whisper life. It's actually that sequence which not only made a filmic translation doable, but a monumental milestone. I was explaining bits and pieces of it to my father, but still you cannot get yourself out of that awe-aspiring experience.
I'll say this : people would be made to at THAT so they'd behave about the ' superhero ' thing the next time.
And, oh yes.
Should I be watching this again, it would be to see this grandest thing up the screen.
And yes, I kind of wanna watch this movie again, as well. \
But if you can't wait :
Watchmen Opening Credits.
This really is, for all intents and purposes, a film that looks to grow on people through time. At least, that's where it currrently stands. Tweak the escalation a bit or two, and it's an indisputable classic.
* However, this also makes me sorta wish they'd expand ' Watchmen ' into a full-blown HBO mini-series, somewhere down the line - with more or less that opening ( or similar nature ) intact. Reminds me of ' Carnival '. for one. Just shoot a few scenes here and there with the same cast, and same sets, so they get to complete the entire picture at their own, more relaxed pace, and allow the whole thing to breathe right. Stands to be a hell of a lot bigger phenomenon, that way
What have they got to lose ? The same thing was done with Robert Altman's M*A*S*H*, a classic black comedy/ war film, that was turned into one of the greatest TV series of all time. And that was a far, longer run. |
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taonggyera
You Can't Stop The Anger
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Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:21 am |
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Oh, and it's 66% in Rotten Tomatoes now.
And, fun fact, seems they rewrote that ' consensus ' blurb, from something like ' visuals and technical brilliance despite flaws in narrative and pacing ', to ' complex narrative structure may make it difficult for it to appeal to viewers not already familiar with the source material. '
Just sayin'.
Oh, and 'exsanguinatrix ' ( a.k.a. Mixka ), those manga by Kazushi Hagiwara!! bothered by that ' blue dong ' stuff have VERY SERIOUS ISSUES.
Jesus Christ, I've never heard more idiot Freudian panic in my entire fricking life ! |
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Sir Pepoy Josepito
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Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:33 am |
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| taonggyera wrote: | * However, this also makes me sorta wish they'd expand ' Watchmen ' into a full-blown HBO mini-series, somewhere down the line - with more or less that opening ( or similar nature ) intact. Reminds me of ' Carnival '. for one. Just shoot a few scenes here and there with the same cast, and same sets, so they get to complete the entire picture at their own, more relaxed pace, and allow the whole thing to breathe right. Stands to be a hell of a lot bigger phenomenon, that way
What have they got to lose ? The same thing was done with Robert Altman's M*A*S*H*, a classic black comedy/ war film, that was turned into one of the greatest TV series of all time. And that was a far, longer run. |
This has been on my mind for the longest time now. And I've heard the same sentiment from other comic-book fans. 12 episodes. Nothing cut. It would be brilliant.
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taonggyera
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Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:08 am |
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| Sir Pepoy Josepito wrote: |
This has been on my mind for the longest time now. And I've heard the same sentiment from other comic-book fans. 12 episodes. Nothing cut. It would be brilliant. |
BRING IT ON, Y'ALL.
Yun rin pinagtatakahan ko.
First thing on my mind after watching this again ( and after being blown to bits by it in the theater ), ' HBO ' T.V. series. Mala-Sopranos/The Wire/Generation Kill/Carnivale. Kaso, superheroes
Man, that's some epochal your poetry waiting to happen !
At pwede na rin silang mag-all-out-R doon. At ALL OUT SQUID ! |
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Uncle Gravy
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Joined: 12 Dec 2008
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Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:46 am |
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| The Goddamn wrote: | | Uncle Gravy wrote: |
Finally, nice soundtrack. I APPROVE OF THIS SOUNDTRACK. |
...
The songs themselves are excellent songs; I love all of them. But in the context? Seriously?
My Chemical Romance ended it for me. Bob Dylan's rolling in his alive grave. |
I meant what I said, and I meant "soundtrack", not "track".
I understand that it was in some twisted way a critique on cinema, but even if I didn't know that, I would still like it. Might have been to overpowering in some parts (read: masyadong malakas), but that's all.
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Job McBadass
Douche (Retired)
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
Posts: 920
Location: In the Moment
Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:17 pm |
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| Pepoy Josepito wrote: | | Jackie Earle Haley was clearly the best actor. He was Rorschach. The raw, guttural, monotone voice did not sound grating at all throughout the entire movie, unlike Bale's Batman voice in TDK even with the relatively few lines he had. The scenes where he was the central figure were all top-notch, especially the scene where he was caught in the trap by the police. The movie also managed to make him even "sicker" an individual with the brutality shown. |
Magnificent acting skills right there. My lips did the little wibble while I was watching this again (on the cam, sorry; DON'T JUDGE ME). Don't forget the tiny shred of humanity he showed when the realization of Veidt's plan finally hit him. His decision was the defeat of the man against his credo, but damn, the way JEH played the part; it was less of Rorschach being the unstoppable force of objectivism, but a man struggling with the ideals that literally gave him his identity.
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fnspidey
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Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:01 pm |
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| So will I still have people to discuss Watchmen with when I finally watch it on Thursday? |
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